My friend Shannon sent me this picture last week for a freewrite. I tried to think of something clever to say about it but all I could think was: which one am I? Am I prudish? Asking for it? Am I, at all, modest?
I think the answer, in short, is no. Despite growing up in Christian schools that did not allow sleeveless or short skirts, I somehow escaped the guilt that fell on many of my peer’s shoulders–that our bodies should be covered lest we be raped. Luckily my parents had sense and did not make bodies into a big deal. Even though I was overweight for most of my childhood, I did not feel ugly or any need to cover up in the locker room. This is not to say I didn’t deal with my fair share of body issues (oh honey did I), but modesty was never one of them.
To be clear, I’ve never dressed especially provocative or immodest–I just don’t think about things like, “Should I wear a bra with this?” Because bras are uncomfortable and I hate bras and who cares. Short skirts are just showing off. Do you want to be a show off? That’s what I think when I see a super short skirt. If I ever have the responsibility of having a daughter, you bet your bottom dollar that she’ll be covering her bottom dollar. Not because I think it’s necessarily wrong, but because I think it’s silly. And not silly ha-ha, but silly DO YOU WANT TO GET PREGNANT? (Maybe I should stick to sons).
And perhaps I have an uneducated idea of what modest really means. When I think of modest, I think high collars and long skirts, Amish folks and school marms. I think of my third grade librarian and her tightly wound bun. Even in the third grade, I pitied her. Had she ever been on a date? Worn high heels? Thrown on a little lipstick and went out on the town? For me, it’s not as much about being modest as it is about being classy. Classy is sexy. Classy is what men (and women) want. Classy is what will get you a job interview and health benefits. Let’s keep it classy, teenage youths! Put away your fishnet stockings. You don’t want to be that girl.
One last thing. To be clear, I don’t think my Amish neighbors wearing coverings and cape dresse are repressed unless they feel repressed (because that’s how repression works). Own it if you love it. That is my take on modesty.
What about you? Are you matronly or provocative? Are you modest?
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Oooo…interesting question (as always!) I think I fall on “proper” on that nice leg pictured above. But maybe sometimes flirty when I’m in the mood? I think it’s more I’m too self conscious than any moral quandary. And I agree with you, classy is sexy! (And I don’t think classy is the same as modest–a confusing word!)
The stereotypes that picture points out are interesting. I just keep staring at it.
Short skirts are just showing off. Do you want to be a show off? That’s what I think when I see a super short skirt.
YES. I have nice legs, but I don’t need to show everyone the entire thing!
I like the sound of classy vs modest. Modest does sound a little too virtuous for the likes of this self declared hippy.
Yes. Maybe it’s just linguistics. I like the sound of “classy” better.
Ermm…Danielle today would probably fall somewhere between proper and flirty. Nightclubbin, party hoppin, fun girl Danielle (WHERE DID SHE GO?!) would be a little (a lot) closer to cheeky. Neither of these Danielle’s would venture above cheeky because let’s be honest I’m not a stick figure and thick girls in short skirts are generally not cute- unless you’re Kim Kardashian. Damn her.
Jeff and I have this incredible fear over Taylor’s teen years. She’s a mixed girl, which in this town means HOT PROSPECT and we wanna shut that down real fast. So I would lean more towards “proper” for her, but I know eventually she’ll have a mind of her own. I guess it’s our job to make sure we’ve built up her self worth enough that she won’t feel the need to dress for attention. God Willing.
Amen.
I’m most interested in how women’s ‘immodesty’ is used as justification for rape. Either overtly or inadvertently (re: ‘she was asking for it’ or ‘what did she expect?’). This implies that men are animals unable to stop themselves from raping if a woman is insufficiently uncovered. I’ve always wondered why men are ‘up in arms’ offended by that.
Err – insufficiently ‘covered’.
And again, “aren’t!” up in arms offended. Wrote that way too fast.
I think the argument is that if a woman dresses provocatively, they are tempting men beyond their inherent self control.
this makes men sound sad.
So sad.
When we lower our expectations of men like that, we’re really shortchanging them.
I agree! How aren’t men more outraged at the implication that they’re born rapists, just spending all day resisting the temptation.
That is the argument. And I reject it. Completely.
It is not my responsibility to ensure that I don’t get raped. In the same way that it’s not “my fault” if I’m murdered b/c I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. There is no excuse for rape, and suggesting that a woman bears the responsibility suggesting that there are excuses.
I’m also interested in the idea of “beyond there control”. So, in Saudi Arabia, is that when you can see my eyes or my shoes peeking out from behind the Burqua. In Germany, topless beaches aren’t “beyond control”. To bear this argument out, should I – woman – be held responsible for understanding what is beyond every man’s control. RE: women as temptress by virtue of womanness. Man as animals, always walking on the age of raping – which could get triggered at any moment, by anything.
Fortunately, we are progressing. Our younger generations are, despite themselves, more tolerant and open minded. This is my hope, anyways.
i think the pickle is that women have to be shape shifters, we have to be all of them at different times (of the day, week, of our lives)
Agreed!
Yes.
Modesty is such an interesting topic for me. I mostly see it through the eyes of religion, because that is always what defined it for me. I’m Mormon, and there are pretty specific guidelines about what should be covered, especially as an adult. No sleeveless, no super low cut necklines, and nothing above the knee (unless you are swimming or exercising).
Personally, I do not have the natural impulse of modesty. If it weren’t for my religion’s cultural modesty, I would wear skirts above the knee and tank tops all day long.
The interesting and sad thing that can happen within Mormon culture (& other religious cultures too, I’m sure) is how crazy people get about monitoring other people’s modesty. There is actually a website called “is this modest?” where people (mainly middle aged creepers) post pictures of women and discuss whether or not they are dressed appropriately. This makes me nauseated.
There are stories coming out of BYU of over zealous testing center employees who refuse to let women take their tests of they are wearing skinny jeans because, to them, it’s immodest which apparently equals pornographic.
My biggest issue with modesty in cultural terms is what you mentioned, that somehow if a woman doesn’t dress to someone else’s standard of modesty, she is asking to be degraded, disrespected, or assaulted. It’s so mysoganistic my head spins.
Of course, I’m a Mormon feminist, so I am not your standard voice on this subject.
Great post topic!
A natural impulse for modesty. That’s interesting to me. My sister and I grew up in the same house, but she is naturally modest. Strange how it can be so influenced by personality/genetics.
Thanks for an insightful and well thought out comment!
I grew up my whole life covering myself. The norms in my country and religion is that girls should show very little skin (not showing anything is preferred). Of course I hated that as a teenager and always wished that I can dress up like Rachel from Friends. Fast forward 15 years, I’m 29 years old now, live in America and married to an American that gives me the freedom to wear what I want, but I still wear modest clothes. I remember wearing a bathing suite for the first time was really embarrassing, I felt I was naked and didn’t want to leave the ladies room. I do try to find sexy clothes when it’s appropriate to wear them, but I don’t try too hard. I’m lucky to have been able to understand the balance between dressing up nicely and not look like I’m trying to show skin just to show skin. I have the freedom to wear what I want, but I don’t take advantage :)
Rachel Karen Green. She was just the coolest.
Any modesty that I had got thrown out the window after I had to pee along side the road in Haiti on every single trip. No rest stops there! I even had a lady try to sell oranges to me while I peed. And I don’t even wanna start with how many wieners and breastesesses (yes, I said wieners) I’ve seen. Our culture is unusually preoccupied with covering up.
Wieners!
Fantastic.
Hmm, good questions. Modesty according to Merriam-Webster is “freedom from conceit or vanity.” I know that isn’t specifically about clothing, but I think it applies.
To me modesty, whether about clothes or attitude, means trying not to draw too much attention to yourself. Like that friend you have that drives you crazy because all they want to talk about is all the amazing things they’ve done. Or the one that wears the mini-mini skirts and low neck lines so that even you can’t help but stare.
Also, I know that when we’re around someone dressed “immodestly” my husband can’t help noticing them, even though he doesn’t want to. And I don’t like that; it makes me jealous. So I try not to do that to someone else’s husband. I try to dress modestly.
Also, I would say your ideas of modesty are what I would call prudish. I think you can show some skin and still be modest. And it’s definitely possible to be stylish and attractive while being modest!
I’ve been known to give the stink eye to a short skirted girl while on a date.
Such a good topic. Growing up I was very modest, partly because I was such a tomboy, I never really cared about clothes. Also, though, partly because my mom (even though I’m sure this was not her intention – or rather it’s what stuck with me the most) drilled into me that boys only wanted one thing and if I showed any skin, I’d invite unwanted attention that would lead to sex and babies. I don’t think I really understood that modesty was not just about clothing, but how you present yourself in all areas, until much later in life.
Frustrating how that concept doesn’t become so obvious until later in life.
I feel weird if I show any cleave. And I don’t have nice legs.
Generations of bad legs have cursed me, but I’m over it. There’s no need for short skirts around here.
This is such an interesting topic to me, and was actually the focus of discussion at my small group last night (so great timing, MM!). One of the points that we wrestled with was this: we recognize that it’s really not classy/ok to put all of your goods out there for the world to oggle at… and yet, there is a very intoxicating, very different sense of confidence that comes when you take the time to make yourself look sassy (read that as “sexy but classy,” not trashy) and know that people are thiking “damn, that girl is hot!” Then, we realized that the sassy-confidence was actaully a sense of power. Woah.
I’m still trying to figure out how I feel about that idea: sexy-sassy-confidence = powertrip. Any thoughts?
Thanks for such a great post, MM!
Like Madeline, I’m Mormon, so modesty is a term that’s thrown around often, and with an exact definition. As in, to be a good, practicing Mormon, you must be modest. And to me, the way it makes sense is that it’s about respect. We respect the bodies that God gave us, we believe that parts of our bodies are sacred and shouldn’t be shown to everyone. But does it suck that on a humid August day I always have on sleeves and shorts down to my knees? Heck yes.
I think, though, that because modesty is emphasized so much in Mormon culture that there’s become this floating idea {not supported by anything we actually believe} that girls must be modest to protect boys’ minds. Which I kind of bought into as a teenager but now makes me laugh. Because if a guy is a sex-craved, potential rapist perv, sleeves or no sleeves isn’t going to make a bit of difference.
Yes! I totally thought that too. And like you said, it’s not church doctrine, but it pervades the culture & does everyone a disservice.
Naptime will soon be over so I didn’t read all the comments before throwing in my two cents.
I think modest means drawing attention away from our body and to our face. For me the fabrics and patterns are often just as important an aspect as the hem and neck lines. When I go to Church I want to make sure I’m dressed modest. I wouldn’t want to make someone feel uncomfortable or distracted, or to feel like I have eyes looking at me inappropriately. Who wants to be a show off in that situation? When I got out for a late cocktail with my husband or prepare a fancy dinner at home you bet I go for flirty or cheeky. On the picture, I fall somewhere between flirty and old fashioned depending on the occasion and the day.
It used to bother me that my man would find other women attractive, or impulsively take a second look. Now happily married, I’m not phased in the least if my man thinks a woman’s attractive. Why? B/c he chooses me every day. Every morning. He loves me, and I know that empirically finding someone attractive has no impact on that commitment. Frankly, he also finds the idea that b/c he finds women sexy,he must be holding himself back from a rapist impulse repugnant. Finding women attractive does not a rapist make.
This is touchy subject for me, because growing up as part of a Christian church, I was chastised a number of times for not covering up enough. Other girls would wear the same clothes as me, but because I had bigger boobs, I naturally filled out those clothes more and was subsequently taught to feel shame for those womanly parts. As a kid who is just getting used the fact that you have these ridiculously uncomfortable, heavy, melons on your chest that garner you lots of unwanted attention from teenage boys and construction workers, that is not a super fun thing to be told by someone you trust and admire. I felt like a skank just because of the body that God gave me and many years of body insecurity ensued.
My mum ended up telling me this – your breasts are no more or less special or valuable or different from any other body part. Why is it ok to have a beautiful face and show it off with makeup but then have someone else shamed because they have big breasts which they did nothing to acquire? It’s really what we make of it.
(Also, for comments sake – I wasn’t running around in push up bras or low cut tops, just clothes that didn’t fit me very well (partly because there were no clothes that fit my proportions that my teenage budget could afford!!), but I was too distracted living my life to notice.)