On Tuesday I wrote a post on birds and voting. It was nothing special, mostly rambling about mallard ducks and excitement about election day, which is why it was so surprising when it turned out to be one of the most viewed and controversial posts on this blog to date.
The entry itself was not controversial, but the comment section quickly became heated when my sister-in-law Zoe made a comment expressing her belief that women should not vote. The response was swift and strong; confusion, questions, and (mostly) respectful disagreement. You can read the responses here.
Over the next 48 hours, questions poured into my email inbox and phone about Zoe, her lifestyle, and our relationship. Finally Zoe and I agreed that a question and answer post might be the best way to address the inquiries on her ideas about women and their role in marriage and politics. The following is a selection of your questions and her answers submitted by email or via the comment section.
As I said on Tuesday, Zoe is family and I love her. She is Austin’s sister but she is also my friend. We disagree on most things, and yet we’re still able to find common ground. I respect her and appreciate her honesty and willingness to share her thoughts today. It’s not often that we get insight into those who believe very differently from us. I consider it a learning experience, a field trip to another worldview, not grounds for anger or disrespect. I hope you do the same.
Thanks Kate for this opportunity!
Let me preface my responses by saying that if you are not a believer of the same God that I am, then this will be a really difficult concept to grasp. I’m also seeing that plenty of Christian women have trouble understanding me. To them I say this: seek the Lord’s will. Give yourself to Him and see what He has in store for you and your relationship with your husband. He will bless you beyond anything measurable if you trust and follow Him.
Also: I’m not trying to shove my religion and views down anyone’s throat. Believe what you want! I love and respect lots of people who believe differently than myself but you asked what I think so here goes!
1) If you have a daughter and she marries a man who doesn’t share you belief system and decides for her and their family to live in direct contrast to what you think is right, do you just submit to her husband too because he is a man? Do you tell her to stand up for herself and the beliefs she was raised? Or do you tell her what you are advocating now – just listen and obey to whatever man is in charge?
I do have a daughter! And two sons as well.
If I truly believe her husband’s beliefs are harmful and against the Lord’s will, I will pray for them. I will also advise her to do as he requests unless he is asking her to do something she believes the Lord would say is wrong (murder, cheat, lie, etc). In that case, she can make an appeal to him and if that doesn’t work, she should seek counsel from church leaders.
2) What about you – can you ask your husband to not purchase a pair of shoes, refrain from wearing a certain shirt, work more, work less, etc.? And when you say women are weaker than men, do you mean that you (and all women) are not as smart as your husband and so that is why he should make all the decisions?
I can ask him to do things but I have to remind myself that he can decide to go against my wish. He needs to be his own man and make decisions he feels are wise. Besides, nobody can get everything they want in life. It’d be ridiculous for me to expect him to always listen to me. (For the record, I don’t always listen to him, either. I am human, after all.)
That being said, he does respect my wishes, too! He’s not a terrible, demanding man. Not at all. We discuss things and come to an agreement one way or another.
I do not think men are more intelligent than women. That was not my point at all. Often people will use the argument that women can lead just as well as men, perhaps even better. This may be true but God saying that women should not lead is not a statement about women being inferior or incapable. He is simply saying that it is not within our sphere of authority and nature to take leadership over men or to teach them.
The above statement is key in understanding this philosophy.
3) What is your reasoning behind men being created the stronger sex?
I’m not sure I really understand how you can possibly think men AREN’T the stronger sex. Generally speaking, they are larger and physically stronger. Typically they have deeper more authoritative voices than women. (I’m aware there are small men out there and I don’t think that makes them any less manly.)
4) Do your parents feel the same way as you? Was that the way you and Austin were raised? What does your mom say about this? Your siblings? Do you come from a conservative family? In essence: how was this belief system formed? And if so, what made it “stick” with you, but not Austin?
I will not speak for my parents or siblings. By all appearances, people probably thought my family very conservative. But really, they are rather not. That’s probably confusing but I’m not sure how else to say it. Besides, I don’t like these labels of “conservative” and “liberal”. Mostly those labels just conjure up too many judgments about the other person.
How was my belief system formed? I suppose you could say it’s a culmination of watching the couples in my life that I admire, reading I’ve done on the subject, listening to my instincts, and choosing to follow the God that I do.
I don’t know how to answer these questions comparing Austin and me. I mean, why do any siblings end up the same or different on any subject? We’ve had different life experiences that have brought us each to where we are today.
5) Back to voting, what about the women fighting all over the world for their rights? Women who are stoned to death, women who are persecuted, women who are fighting for their lives, their children, their rights—women who would literally die for the right to vote?
I think we can all agree that there are some men in this world who are not fit to lead. These men are abusing their power and not respecting the women. It is terrible and completely unjust. Honestly, I don’t have an answer to this question. I don’t know how to help them. I don’t know what to tell them to do other than to pray and respect their men as well as they can. Only the grace of God can remove or change these terrible men.
Let me say this. I’m not really against women’s rights as I think I came across as being. I shouldn’t have made some of the statements I did. You want to vote? Vote. (Though I still think men should lead and thus men should choose the leaders.) You want to work full-time? Go for it. (But in my opinion, it is a woman’s place to be in the home rearing and guarding the children and providing a safe haven for her husband.) You want to pastor a church? Then by all means do it. (Pretty sure you know where I stand on this.) I won’t stop you. I will not judge you. Just because it’s not for me doesn’t mean I can tell others not to do it. That’s between you, God, and your spouse.
6) I’m a Christian wife too, here’s my question: If your husband makes a decision that you believe in your heart is not in the best interest for you and your children (making an irrational financial purchase, not handling a relationship well, asking for things you do not want to do/give) … do you do it anyway? Has this happened in your current relationship?
I have a very good relationship with my husband. If he wants to do something I don’t agree with, I voice my concern. We are very respectful of one another. He’s never done any of these things you listed. I mean, I guess he’s done things I’d rather he didn’t do, but in the grand scheme of things–they were unimportant and I didn’t hold any grudges.
But maybe you want to know what I’d do if he didn’t respect me? If it were an irrational financial purchase, first I’d make an appeal to him. I would state my thoughts on the subject. If he doesn’t agree with me and chooses to make that purchase, I’d do my best to save pennies in all other areas of my life and help pay for that purchase.
Not handling a relationship well? I don’t know. Pray for him and the other person? I’d have to understand more of the situation to really answer this well.
Ask me to do/give things I don’t want to give? As I stated before, unless they are against the laws of the Lord (lie, cheat, steal, etc.) then I have to do/give it. If it is against the Lord’s law, I would seek counsel from a trusted church authority who could help me understand the Bible better and see God’s will in the situation.
7) What about my brother who married a strong woman who is simply better at making the big decisions? He is the more emotional one in the relationship and she is more clear headed and does things like make financial decisions, pays bills, and just generally keeps the house together while also maintaining a full time job. He works as a mechanic part time and is happy to be a loving, supportive husband and father. He helps cooks meals, clean the house, change diapers, picks up the kids from school…I’m curious, does your husband do these things? Or would that make him “whipped” as you called it {on Tuesday}? Is my brother “whipped?” Is he less of a man? Is it not a Godly marriage in your eyes?
It’s not my job to judge whether he is less or more of a man or if their marriage is Godly. That’s between them and God.
Brad does help out around the house when he is home. However, he works long days pretty much every day so I don’t expect him to help me too much.
8) As a woman engaged to another woman, who in the world should I let make major decisions for me? Outsource my decisions to a male neighbor?
I don’t believe God intended for women to be with women and men to be with men. If He had, He would have designed them to fit together.
You are probably going to say that you were born desiring women or that women just understand you better or that you can’t help feeling this way. My response to that is: I was born to be jealous. I was born to gossip. I was born to dislike my body. Sinning is human nature, people. That doesn’t make it right! If you were born gay then that’s something you will have to struggle with your entire life. It’s just the same as me struggling with gossip. I fail. I gossip. Let’s say you fail and you give in to your desire to be with a woman. Fine. We both sinned. But we always have to try to do better. Every day we need to wake up and say, “God, I need your help here” and then do our best to live better than we did in the past.
The same goes for women who say it’s their nature to be dominant. Great! You’d make a wonderful leader! I’m a wonderful gossip, too! But God does not want me to be a queen of gossip and neither does he want you to overstep the boundaries he has so clearly laid out for women.
So to answer the original question: yeah, I suppose I do think you should let the men in your life make those decisions.
9) In your comments under Tuesday’s post you said, “Somehow, I think the world would be a better place if we decided that we have enough and just lived life with what we’ve got instead of always pushing for more, whether that’s more money, more rights, or whatever.” My question: If women hadn’t “pushed for more” we wouldn’t have child support, the right for birth control, and the right to divorce our abusers. If we hadn’t pushed for rights, we might still be being beaten with the legalized “two inch rod.” What are the rights we shouldn’t be pushing for? What shouldn’t we have that men don’t?
I think what I was really trying to get at the other day is that we women need to adjust our attitudes. I do not appreciate the feminist attitude because it portrays the idea that women are “owed the world”. We need to remove ourselves from this outlook. It’s not healthy for the relationship between men and women. Men do not owe us the world. I believe that we were created for men! We need to respect them rather than continually trying to push them aside and rise above them. In turn, I’m pretty sure they will love and respect us more. It’s wired in their very being to lead. Let’s not take that away from them.
I think the feminist movement portrays men as being incapable of making decisions. By saying, “I need to vote!” we are essentially telling our husbands that we don’t trust their judgment or that their vote isn’t enough. There are a lot of wonderful men out there who have been trodden by their wives because the wives didn’t trust them.
Also take this into consideration: We wouldn’t even have women’s rights if it weren’t for strong male leaders. I’m pretty sure there weren’t women in congress voting to pass these laws. We owe it to the men that we have the rights we do. We need to be thankful for what they’ve done for us. And then we need to trust that they can also do more, for other areas of the world and for us here if needed.
We need to practice contentment. Instead of pushing to be equal to men, let’s appreciate our differences. There’s no use in trying to be like the men. We can’t be! We don’t look like them, think like them, or act like them.
As for these rights you are asking about, I think they are all necessary. As I stated above, I’m not against these rights. I do think, however, that we often abuse these rights. Child support is a sticky issue. I don’t know much about it but I’m sure there are those out there that truly do need and deserve it.
I don’t understand why birth control is a right. Just don’t have sex. It’s not the government’s responsibility to keep us from getting pregnant. If you want birth control because your husband wants another child and you don’t, then I think that’s dishonoring your husband. Is there something about birth control that I do not understand?
I think removing yourself from an abusive situation is fine (necessary) as long as the abused spouse has done everything in their power to reconcile the marriage in a biblical way. I realize this is a fallen world. There are men/people out there who will never see the Light and make terrible leaders. I also think, that if given the respect they crave, a lot of these abusing husbands could turn around and make a major change. God can work miracles! Let’s let him help us find the way.
10) Did you have the same dynamic while you were dating? Does your husband agree with your beliefs?
Yes, we had this same dynamic while we were dating. And yes, Brad agrees with me on these things. I asked him to read my responses to these questions. He okayed everything and said it’s fine to publish this.
11) What about men who are abusive and controlling with their spouses? Should those women also submit to their husbands, regardless of whether his demands are reasonable or safe? At what point does a woman have a right to stand up for herself and her family? Living in the deep south, I work with victims daily — many of whom were raised with the mentality to “submit fully to your husband.” As a result, they are now walking in a straight line towards death, exposing their children to horrible acts of violence, and often, reluctant to leave because they are following the “word of the Lord” in submitting. I am glad that you seem to have a healthy marriage, however this mentality is beyond frightening as I’ve seen the hell it brings to families, children and communities. I actually consider it a disservice to victims when I read public statements like this. Even if the majority of your peers don’t have this issue, can you see how dangerous it is to promote this line of thought? Considering 1 in 4 women are abused at some point in their lives (yes, in the United States) your words have been read (and will continue to be read) by countless victims. Many of whom might be trying to figure out whether to stay or go. Hearing that their submission isn’t “working” often shames them and convinces them to stay. To death. I pray for peace in your home and that of friends. However, I fear the backlash this type of “theology” creates.
Do you think I WANT women to be beaten and abused? Do you think me a heartless, wealthy snob? I’m sure many of you do. But that is not who I am. This is not dangerous theology I am promoting. By all means, a woman should be able to remove herself from these awful situations. It’s sad that there are ladies in the world that do not have the ability to do so. It’s an unjust world we live in. There will never be complete peace and for that I am sad. But that doesn’t mean there can’t be glory given to God in these situations.
Like I said before, if the woman has done everything in her power (honoring her husband and fulfilling her wifely duty) and the husband still abuses, then it is not her fault and yes, she should be able to escape.
By working with these abused women, you are doing an admirable service. I hope that the love of Jesus Christ shines in your ministry. Perhaps I could recommend this book to you and the women you counsel: Created to be His Help Meet by Debi Pearl. Of course it will not solve all of the world’s abuse issues but in it Debi shares some of the many, many stories she has received from people in these exact situations you speak of. Joyful stores about wives living in terrible situations but through it all honoring their husbands and in turn their husbands learn to love them and treat them well. It’s a work of God. Only He knows each and every situation’s every detail and can work to bring glory through the suffering.
I think this book is very clear on what the Bible says about a woman’s role in her relationship with her husband. Debi gives many examples of all kinds of situations in which we should go against our controlling human nature and honor our husbands.
(You may say: This is a woman writing this book! She is teaching! That’s against your beliefs! No it’s not. She is simply an experienced woman counseling other women. She is not telling men what to do. Her husband wrote a book for them if anyone is interested.)
I do not mean any disrespect to these women who are faced with terrible difficulties day after day. It is not right that some women experience abuse. I realize I am blessed. Very, very blessed. I do not take my relationship with my husband and my life for granted. We are extremely grateful for everything we have.
12) My interpretation is that you are not interested in politics or the bigger picture. They aren’t your passions, goals, drives. (For the most part, they’re not mine, either.) You’re not into scholarly thoughts or Biblical exegeses. Your needs and interests are met; you are fulfilled. This is wonderful! But to blanket beliefs (about the different genders and how they should behave) over all of humanity is rather limiting. There is much room for diversity in God’s big, fabulous world. Many women/men have other interests and passions, many of which aren’t exactly stereotypical. (And the Bible challenges a lot of what you preach—such as the stories of women who are leaders and business-savvy entrepreneurs.)
You are right, I DETEST politics. I cannot believe I even commented about this in the first place.
But I AM interested in the bigger picture; a bigger picture of mutual respect between men, women, and God. Why else would I be writing these things?
Does the Bible really challenge what I preach? I could list plenty of verses that state women should play the supporting role to their husbands. If someone wants me to, I will.
I’d like to know what female leaders and entrepreneurs you speak of. I can’t think of any women that did it alone and were an honor to the Lord. All I can think of is women that supported their husbands in these roles.
13) Does your parents’ marriage reflect your own conservative take on marriage? What is your take on your parents’ marriage and the way they raised you? Who in your life has a model marriage?
I’d call my parents conservative in their marriage but you know, we’ve never really discussed it so maybe they feel differently. They’ve always been a wonderful example for us kids; always loving, patient, and seeking the Lord’s will. I admire a lot about my parents and love them dearly.
There are a lot of marriages I admire: grandparents (Brad’s and mine), parents (again, both Brad’s and mine), as well as other family and friends.
14) Does your brother Austin (Baby Daddy!) share these views? I’ve been reading Motley Mama for a year now and this seems like a stretch from Kate and Austin’s marriage. How did you come from the same family?
I said it before – I don’t want to speak for other members of my family. They can weigh in if they want to share their thoughts.
How did we come from the same family? I have no idea :)
15) Would you have married someone who felt strongly about equal rights?
I can’t imagine marrying anyone other than Brad! I think it’s safe to say that I wouldn’t have been attracted to a person that believes things that are in stark contrast to my beliefs so I guess the answer is no, I wouldn’t have married that man.
I need to say this here: Brad is not against women’s rights. He doesn’t think women should be shoved under the rug. He hates the abuse and neglect in the world just as much as the next person. There is a time and place for all of these rights. We both agree, though, that there’s a fine line between using and abusing these rights.
16) How do you respond to this article challenging the traditional beliefs of scripture?
“After the fall the Lord said the woman would desire the man and the man would rule over her (Gen. 3:16). The word ‘desire’ in this passage has the connotation of ‘control.’”
What does desire have to do with control? They are two totally different words. I would classify this as blasphemy, changing the scriptures to mean what you want them to mean, not what God intended them to mean.
17) If you love to read, but your husband says it is filling your head with nonsense and told you to stop, what is the appropriate reaction?
Stop reading. Reading is not essential to living life. Is it fun and interesting? Of course. But not essential.
18) Has this conservative mindset trickled down to your children and your parenting style?
Of course our beliefs will be instilled in our children! Why on earth would we raise them in ways that we don’t see as right? Who would do that? They are too young yet to understand any of this but as they grow and question things, we will respond with openness how we feel about all different subjects. They can then form their own opinions. That’s what growing and maturing is all about, right?
By saying “parenting style” is it safe to assume you are wondering whether or not we spank? We do and we’re not afraid to admit it. We do not beat our children. In fact, we don’t even spank very often but it does happen. We think it is a very effective form of discipline as long as it’s done in love.
19) Do you wear a covering? Why or why not?
I do not wear a covering. Brad doesn’t want me to. He does, however, want me to have long hair.
20) Does your husband vote?
Yes.
Ladies, we are never going to agree on all of this. That’s just how the world works. It’s what makes life interesting. I do believe that God is a loving and gracious God and will accept many different walks of life into His Kingdom. But I wanted to clear the air on my opinions, as I don’t want to go down in history as being an uneducated, heartless snob or a browbeaten, brainwashed wife.
Thank you so much for listening!
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Feel free to leave respectful follow up questions and comments for Zoe in the space below.
Please note the views expressed in this interview do not reflect my views or Austin’s views in any way.
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**Update: Comments now closed .**
